Tuesday, June 13, 2006

Clinton Seeks Middle Ground in Abortion Debate

I get tired of Hilary Clinton falling all over herself to find the middle ground on big issues in order to avoid alienating any voters (like anyone on the right is going to vote for her anyway). But I get even more tired of people not recognizing what the opposing sides or the middle are. I recently read a column in my local paper seemingly denouncing extremism on both sides, but it was comparing James Dobson, Ann Coulter and their sleaze to Ted Kennedy calling people who oppose gay marraige "bigots." So maybe that's a little harsh, but it's true. I have yet to see an argument made against gay marraige which isn't rooted in bigotry. Well, one that makes sense, anyway. And religous bigotry is still bigotry.

Anyway, to get back to the article, where Clinton is apparently seeking "middle ground" in the abortion debate. I'm not sure what's so centrist about the position that everyone should have access to family planning and we should try to limit the number of unwanted pregnancies, but if it is, I'm all for it. I don't know of anyone in the pro-choice camp that is encouraging abortions in the first place, so Clinton's position in this case seems to be the default progressive position as far as I can tell. But regardless of how it's viewed, I think it is very important to not only point out that being pro-choice does not mean that abortions are some great thing, and also that there are many much better ways to reduce the number of abortions than by making them illegal.

Mrs. Clinton's advisers say Republicans have long put Democrats on the defensive in the abortion debate, particularly on a procedure that critics call partial-birth abortion.


"It's time to go on the offensive," one of Mrs. Clinton's advisers said.

Yes it is. If the "pro-life" crowd is really interested in reducing abortions, then why are they also opposed to all the things that have a good chance of doing that? Things like education, birth control, and health care. That's what we should be asking them. Make them explain how it's not about control if they don't offer any realistic alternatives and only seek to take the moral high ground.

Hopefully, Clinton will focus more on things like this than cleaning up video games or protecting the flag, and maybe by the time the election rolls around, I won't have to be sick if I'm forced to vote for her. Might help if she joined the rest of the world, and realized the war is a mistake, also.

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Toast said...

The whole "middle ground" bit is a canard, part of Hillary's relentless and aggressive attempt to triangulate between the Democratic base and the right's "Values Voters". We can debate all day about the value of family planning and contraception and whatever, but when it comes down to the abortion question, most people either fundamentally believe that it should be legal with minimal retstrictions or fundamentally believe it's immoral and should be outlawed.

Chris Howard said...

Comparing Kennedy to Coulter is just ridiculous. It's more of the stupid false equivalency. Coulter, Malkin, O'Reilly and the rest don't have equivalents on the left. I've heard some people try to recruit Al Franken and Michael Moore to fill the role of unhinged lefty, but it doesn't wash. Franken is intelligent and funny, not outrageous. Michaal Moore may be closer, but his stuff isn't schtick like Coulter's.

John Howard said...

What's even more ridiculous is how idiots like Malkin make silly claims that the right policies itself and doesn't let the extremists on their side have any voice. Of course she hasn't yet denounced Coulter's latest sleaze. And ifthe right actually did that, she'd be out of a job.

Moore is probably the closest thing on the left to the wackjobs on the right, which just shows how stupid these wingnuts are, since Moore isn't exactly some Democrat shill if you watch any of his earlier movies. Hating Bush doesn't automatically make you a lefty. And they also try to put Cindy Sheehan in that role, which is ludicrous, since whatever her views, she's more than paid the price to make her voice legitimate.

Toast said...

99.9% of what Michael Moore has to say is just good old economic populism. The repeated attempts by the GOP and by many in the Democratic Party to dismiss him as a "nut" are just ridiculous.

Storm said...

Any comments on the recent lawsuit filed against Mr. Moore?

With the exception of libel and slander, I support the right of any person to say anything they want. Ms. Coulter has the right to say what she did. As usual the left is simply not happen to just not buy her book and ignore her. I think CNN is in the DNC's hip pocket so I just never tune the station in.

You all are right there is no comparable equivalent on the left to Ann Coutler, Rush Limbaugh etc.

Partly this has to do with the target market group ie whose money are you going after. The left is going after a target group that benefits from or supports a government that does for them--therefore only a small percentage of the audience is actually going to expend their resources to pay for the books.

Rush Ann and others are going after business peoples money. People who are successful or wish to learn how to be successful therefore they buy books.

Take AM radio versus TV--with the exception of Fox--the DNC owns TV whereas Conservatives own radio and books. Think about TV is passive but radio requires you to think and reading a book takes effort

Storm said...

Actually I am against the Flag burning amendment.

I think it is horrible that people burn the Flag but it is a form of political speech.

Read the decision of Roe V. Wade the Court then held the State's interests were greater than the individual in the 3rd trimester which means the late term abortion ban is Consitutionally valid as decided in the Roe v. Wade decision. Ultimately you miss the point entirely we seek for people to take responsibility for their choices including whether or not they should have children.

John Howard said...

I don't know about any lawsuit against Michael Moore, so I can't comment on it.

As for the left not ignoring Coulter, why should they? When people say ridiculous things, they should be ridiculed. Especially when there is a significant audience that really believes her crap. She absolutely has the right to say what she says, and I'm glad that she does, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't criticize when she says something stupid.

Anyone who buys a book from Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh and thinks it will help them be succesful is an idiot. I think it's more likely that progressive people read real books and form their own opinions, and don't need anyone esle forcefeeding opinions to them whether in a book or on the radio.

As for TV being controlled by the Democrats, that's patently ridiculous. TV News has fallen all over itself to push to the right to avoid the mythical liberal bias that I'm not sure ever existed, but absolutely does not exist now. And no rightwing radio show that I've ever heard requires much thought. They tell you what to think, and when you disagree with something, they tell you why they're right and you're wrong, if they don't just call you a terrorist.

John Howard said...

Flag burning lawsare stupid. Anyone in favor of them simply has no concept of America. Glad you're at least able to see reason on some things.

I said nothing about late term abortions. I did quote from the article that mentioned them, but that wasn't the point of the quote I referenced. But since you mention it, my problem with bans on late term abortion is only that the people making them consistently refuse to make any exceptions to save the life of the mother, which is ridiculous. Otherwise, I don't have any problem with them, and I'm aware of their standing with regard to Roe v. Wade.

Storm said...

Unfortunately the Flag burning Amendment is going to pass.

I love it. No your are right the media is right biased that is why you missed this


Michael Moore sued by Iraq vet for 85 million

as for the late term abortion question ok fine but here is the thing...how many times does that scenario really play out..I mean think about it...how times does a pregnant woman discover in her last trimester that the pregnancy will definitely kill her? what I mean to say is this, pregnancy is a risky thing..I worried for wifes health each time but the truth is women die during childbirth everday..are we writing a law to account for natural consequences or to appeal to some interestin ideal but one with limited probablity...I simply mean with today's medicine such a complication would be discovered much sooner besides do you really think we could stop doctor's from taking the right action to preserve a woman's life.

The flag burning thing is not about reason it is about the Constitution.

frankly the idea that a citizen of this country would burn the flag I have and still defend makes me want to find a 10 gallon bucket to hurl in.

I was a little strong in my wording about Ms. Coulter.. By the way have read any of her books or did you let others force their opinion on you?

Yes I know you read but you and those like you comprise less than half of the DNC party. In the last election Kerry won did in 2 groups--high school dropouts and those with advanced degrees.

As for Rush and let me add Boortz again have you actually listened to either? Almost all conservative talk show hosts provie sources and/or tell listeners to look it up for themselves..you have been told what tp think about these folks and you did not even notice the brain washing

Toast said...

Oh my god.


Michael Moore was sued by an Iraq Veteran???

Jesus, Storm, you're right!!!

That means the media is not biased towards the right wing!!! Why, the fact that Michael Moore was sued by an Iraq Veteran instantaneously obliterates any and all arguments of right-wing bias! Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Joe Scarborough? It's as if none of them even existed! The fact that the makeup of every single Sunday-morning news discussion panel is roughly 80% right-wing? Doesn't matter! Because Michael Moore is being sued by an Iraq Veteran!

My god, man, you're a genius!

John Howard said...

As for Rush and let me add Boortz again have you actually listened to either? Almost all conservative talk show hosts provie sources and/or tell listeners to look it up for themselves..you have been told what tp think about these folks and you did not even notice the brain washing

Are you kidding? Obviously, I'm not the one who has never listened to these guys. Their M.O. is to state their opinions as fact, and their clueless audience eats it up. I've never heard Rush, Hannity, Bortz, or any of these idiots document anything.

As for who reads, if you seriously think that conservative voters are more likely to read than progressive voters, I think you're nuts.

Why do you think the flag burning amendment will pass? I haven't seen anything that suggests that.

And about abortion, if you don't want to bother with laws that only apply to rare cases, then that kind of eliminates the need for a late term abortion ban in the first place, since they're very rare.

I read as much of Slander as I could stomach. It was poorly written, drew some pretty weak conclusions from pretty questionable data. And I've heard enough directly from her mouth to make my opinion on her pretty clear. Don't worry, no one needs to tell me what to think about that cunt.

Storm said...

You guys are funny

thanks for the laugh

Oh JRH sorry about the grammer the other night I realy should not try this late at night after drinking adult beverages.

oh well